How Alina Vandenberghe grew Chili Piper's Annual Net Revenue Retention to 160%
How Alina Vandenberghe grew Chili Piper's Annual Net Revenue Retention to 160%
Alina Vandenberghe (00:02):
It's amazing that they have this inbound conversion at 30, 40%, but then they put Chili Piper on and then they have 70% or 80% and that's mind blowing.
Peep Laja (00:15):
I'm Peep Laja. I don't do fluff, I don't do filler, I don't do emojis. What I do is study winners in B2B SaaS because I want to know how much is strategy, how much is luck and how did you win. This week, Alina Vandenberghe co-founder of Chili Piper a sales meeting scheduling software. Since their founding in 2016, the company has achieved revenues of around 20 million dollars, with around 150 employees worldwide. In their recent series B, the evaluation was something like 20X multiplier on their ARR due to their crazy high net revenue retention.
Peep Laja (00:49):
In this episode, we talk about creating a must have product, by taking human weakness out of a key business problem. We hear about having the knowledge, drive and attention to detail to create a product category leaders wouldn't take a risk on. And we hear about becoming indispensable to customers by being a tool they simply can't do without. Let's get into it. Alina, tell me about the first insight you had about the market before building Chili Piper.
Alina Vandenberghe (01:18):
We knew that we wanted to get into sales and marketing. We didn't know exactly how we're going to start entering this market, and we knew that it was quite fragmented and crowded space. But we had the first client pay upfront to solving a very specific problem that they had. And before we accepted it as a project, we just asked around if others had the same problem to make sure that it was something that people would pay for, which was as soon as you have a prospect on the phone and you want to move them further in the process. Because it's very time sensitive and they say, yes, I want to talk to and get a demo or I want to onboard or whatever that next step was. They had to be handoff. So, there has to be a handoff to happening within the revenue teams.
Alina Vandenberghe (02:10):
And it had to be an equitable handoff that had quite a lot of complex rules in place. And you wanted to make that transfer and handoff as smooth as possible, so that you say, yeah, you can talk tomorrow at 3:30 with Joe, let me book to you and I make sure that you get the invite instead of you having to fiddle over some spreadsheets and do some mathematical formula to figure out if Joe really should get that next meeting on the books, or he has too many opportunities or else he has too few, or he's in the right region, or he's not in the right industry, etc. So, our tool at the beginning did that when a rep would get somebody interested on the phone to get a demo, we would hand them off to the right team member on the spot. So, it was like a what we call at that time, a hot handoff. And it could also happen so that you could hand them off on the spot so that they can speak immediately to somebody if they would be interested on the spot.
Peep Laja (03:07):
So the handoff or the transition from an SDR to account executive took too long because of complicated rules. And you guys solved this one specific problem.
Alina Vandenberghe (03:17):
Exactly. And again, before we put our brains into solving that specific problem, we made sure to ask around if many people had that same exact problem. And we turned out that a lot of teams, there was a lot of tension, especially between SDRs and AEs, that the handoff was not equitable, that some SDRs would favor some certain account executives because of better closure rates, and then they would have a commission based on closure, or just because they were friends and they would want that person to get more booking.
Alina Vandenberghe (03:47):
So, there was always this conflict between the manager of account executives and the manager of SDRs that would say, okay, this process is not working much better to put some automation in place, rather than leave it up to chance. And by solving into software, you'd not only solve some human tensions, but at the same time, the process would get smoother because the prospect would not have to wait on the phone or on the email or whatever the place was to wait to get the next interaction with the company. So it was solving two problems in one.
Peep Laja (04:18):
So the sales tech landscape is insanely competitive, so many tools, and classical VC critique could be, this is a feature, not a product yet you went on to build it. How soon before you were sure that, oh, this... We're onto something. This is going to work?
Alina Vandenberghe (04:37):
It was very tricky because that's exactly what every VC tell us that you're not interesting or just a feature. Even ourselves we were not a 100% bought that we can actually take the next step from that and make sure that we have something that could be considered a few billion dollar company. But as soon as we understood the jobs to be had for each one of these roles, we understood that there was much more to it. There were many more entry points where an inbound lead comes in that needs immediate help that helps automate that conversion and then accelerate it.
Alina Vandenberghe (05:16):
And then all of a sudden it hit us, should, this is huge because we are doubling conversion rates, and so you spend the same money as a marketer, but you get double the pipeline without doing anything extra, just paying Chili Piper a few extra dollars there a month. It was like the light bulb switch as that realization came to fruition, many other use cases around that inbound conversion came through to us. And then we sold for them one by one by one, until our product became very sticky. And we have an amazing retention for our customers because as soon as they put Chili Piper, they don't want to take it out.
Peep Laja (05:55):
Because it just works. It actually increases the demo sales conversion rates.
Alina Vandenberghe (06:00):
It doubles their conversion rates for inbound. So, you can imagine everybody's super happy about their inbound conversion rate, we say, oh, we close at 40%, we close at 30% compared to outbound, which is whatever, 16%, 15%, 11%, whatever they have, so, they compare it with that. So, it's double, it's amazing that they have this inbound conversion at 30, 40% but then they put Chili Piper on, and then they have 70% or 80%. And that's mind blowing
Peep Laja (06:28):
Chili Piper is a fantastic case study on how to build a successful company. The main thing, the value they add is unquestionable and easily to demonstrable. For B2B SaaS, time to value is a critical metric and they absolutely deliver on it. Their customers are more successfully using their tool, and that is the main thing to optimize your business for. You can have the best marketing in the world, but it doesn't matter if a tool doesn't deliver. Chili Piper's annual net revenue retention is around 160%, meaning even if they don't get a single new customer, their business will grow 60% year over a year. Jason Lemkin has said that, if you are at 10 million ARR growing a hundred percent with 150% net revenue retention, then you have already built a Unicorn in waiting.
Jason Lemkin (07:16):
No one actually even understood the power of recurring revenue, I don't think till 2017. But now every prospectus that you read today, the headline metric is NRR NDR, right? Every single company, it's their headline metric. So, we sold EcoSign Adobe Sign to Adobe in 2011. It was 10 million at the time we signed the deal, it was 12 million ARR when it closed and we had 28% market share, okay. Today I'm guessing it's less than half that 13%, that's a tough drop, but it's 250 million of ARR. So, even if you lost market... You don't even have to gain market share, if you have 120% NRR, that 120% NRR carried a 10 million business to 250 million, even with market share loss, right? That would be at least to 10 billion dollar company today on its own. Right? And that's with a market share loss, but with high NRR.
Peep Laja (08:05):
Was the success immediate? Did it work right away?
Alina Vandenberghe (08:09):
Which, even though the value proposition was obvious to everybody, and even though it's a no brainer, like I just mentioned, everybody had a hard time believing it because it seems too good to be true. So, they would be reluctant or I have to change my Marketo rules, or I have to change my Pardot rules, or I have to change my HubSpot rules, I don't want to go through it and by the end of it, maybe it won't even happen that conversion.
Alina Vandenberghe (08:34):
We said, you can try it on just this funnel on your website, just this form that comes through and then you can book it with Chili Piper and see what's going on, and you don't have to make a big commitment, you can just make it with your small SDR team or something different. And people will say, okay, fine, this seems like a smaller change. They will try it on just one part of the website and then immediately the light bulb would come on and they would put it everywhere.
Peep Laja (09:00):
I spent almost a decade of my career in experimentation. One thing I've learned, when you sell change, there will be resistance. Status quo is sticky. And some people really want things to stay as they are. So, instead, sell experimentation, this is not a change, we're just running an experiment. Most people like to think of themselves as data informed, open minded, so they won't fight you on an experiment. At least not as hard. Of course now you got to bring the data that the change would drive better results. How did you get your first set of customers?
Alina Vandenberghe (09:34):
We would go to events where we knew that potential buyers would hang and we would say, hey, do you have this problem? Yes, we do. Do you want to solve it? Sure. Let's try. So at the beginning it was a lot of sure, let's try just by seeing myself and Nicola everywhere, they would go. They would think maybe these people are on to something, but because from the very beginning, we got people that were quite influential in their industry and people who were quite advanced in their tech stack and in the things that they would experiment. So, the early adopters, it was easier to say, oh, you know, that Greenhouse did it or you know, that Square did it. And that would make things more comfortable for them to try it out.
Peep Laja (10:18):
Were these first set of customers, the influential customers, were they also generating a lot of word of mouth? Did you do anything intentional to get the virality? So to speak.
Alina Vandenberghe (10:30):
I think that it's something that marketers understand, but don't understand at the same time, which is that there is a dark funnel that's happen. People talking a lot behind your pay walls and behind your ads and behind everything that you might do, that's visible. That's what happened to us in the early days, it was a lot of strong dark funnel that was happening.
Peep Laja (10:55):
Brand ambassadors, respected individuals and early adopters are a powerful lever in their own, right. "G" also known as Guillaume Cabane, co-founder of Hypergrowth Partners put it well in episode 10 of How To Win.
Guillaume Cabane (11:07):
What makes your audience care? What makes them resonate? And there's only one thing that makes them really resonate, right? It's social proof, and the fact that I will see that, hey, like I know this person, if you think of like a leader in marketing, let's say Udi from Gong, I respect Udi, great leader. And if I see Udi's saying good things about this product, it's probably legit. Now, even more important, if you compete with Gong and you see Gong using this product, like I want to know. So, one of my key strategies has been to try and present, knot the customers that they may know, but the competitors that are using my product that they might have.
Peep Laja (11:51):
Going back to that initial VC critique, this is a feature, not a product. So, essentially once you started getting some success, were you afraid that the big players or maybe Salesforce or whoever is going to build what you built? How did you think about ensuring long term competitive advantage?
Alina Vandenberghe (12:11):
It's a question that I would get a lot, even from journalists and from VCs, hey, isn't X going to copy you because it's so easy to copy, because it's so such a no-brainer product? I would say, yeah, Google can copy everybody, Salesforce can copy everybody. There's no doubt that they can't because they have the cash in the bank and the resources to implement on it. But you to understand that in each one of these activities or product build, you have to have a driving force behind it. Somebody who really wants to make it happen and has the skills to actually bring it through fruition and execution. And you have to understand so many facets of that particular problem that's personalized to that particular persona, that the likelihood of that happening is very low. I mean, Google had so many failed projects and I'm sure Salesforce has had so many failed projects because of that.
Peep Laja (13:07):
Why small businesses and startups have room in the market, big companies need to hit certain growth rates. For a 40 million a year organization to grow at 25% year over year, it needs to find another 10 million dollars of business. A one billion dollars a year company needs to find another 250 million, your niche ain't going to do that. So they don't care. So just building the feature is not enough. You also need somebody to evangelize and market and tell the story.
Alina Vandenberghe (13:38):
And then constantly tweak things to make sure that it actually captures the attention of that buyer. Not only at the beginning of the sales process, but post sales process, to make sure that the product is sticky. There's so many moving parts in a product that you really have to have somebody with a strong energy behind the project. Yeah.
Peep Laja (13:57):
As you're thinking about the future, the competition is probably going to get more stiff down the line. What are you doing now about building moats? And how are you guys thinking about moats in general?
Alina Vandenberghe (14:10):
It's interesting because for the longest time we had zero competition and it was quite unusual that we would be operating like that. There's no company that doesn't have competition and it's both a luxury and not because you still have to educate the market quite a lot. When you have competitors that are starting to copy what you do, which is what's happening to us. There's a benefit to that because they're going and they're saying, oh, you should do that. And it's not only Chili Piper who tells you that would automate your conversion, there's also X, Y, and Z that tell you that. Then you're more likely to take action, so there's buyers more aware of the problem, they're more aware that there's a solution as opposed to the status quo.
Alina Vandenberghe (14:49):
So for us, it's actually good in that sense, we're getting the competition to educate our buyer. It makes us more competitive ourselves because they would say, oh, they've done this feature, we should have done it 10 times better. So, it brings the competitive spirit and I really like that. And as for how to build the moat, I don't think that there's a specific formula that companies can rely on to do that. It's quite easy to try and experiment new tools. And there's no real way of taking people and saying, stay with us unless your Salesforce and all your data with you.
Alina Vandenberghe (15:26):
I don't think Salesforce is going to go anywhere, but all this other tools, it's easy to turn on and turn off. But our... I think that the way Chili Piper is going to stay for sure is by making sure that we cover all the edge cases and all the specific routing rules that other companies will have a long time to catch up because we have had spent five years on super hard, complicated enterprise hardcore use cases that it's going to be very, very hard for them to catch up. And by the time they catch up, we're going to be more advanced on all sorts of use cases that we're going to cover.
Peep Laja (16:01):
So the strategic bet for the future is like all kinds of deep integrations with enterprise software and the features that segment specifically needs because that's your key buyer.
Alina Vandenberghe (16:12):
Exactly. And we're going to start covering many other point solutions that they may be using around routing or any kind of distribution of any kind, but they're going to be able to do it with Chili Piper and then there's no need for them to switch, as long as Chili Piper works well and covers what they need.
Peep Laja (16:33):
This is a classic move, constantly being a few steps ahead with innovation, being an objectively better option. Even if for a moment in time can make you a leader in the space, and you will stay in that leadership position for a long time even when every alternative to you will catch up and have the exact same feature set. There's a lot of customer and market momentum. Colin Nederkoorn, from customer.io described in an early episode, how they use a very similar line of thinking in terms of staying ahead after competition.
Colin Nederkoorn (17:02):
For us, the pace of innovation is probably the most important thing in the company. And pace of innovation can create a moat in the space that we're in processing and dealing with terabytes and terabytes of customer data is hard. There is a moat around technologically, how do you support thousands of customers all sending in this flood of data into the system at all times? But then what do you do with the data? How do you act on it? What are the options that people have for segmentation? What are the workflows that they can build? And for us, what we've realized is that people always want to do more with their customer data and the data that they have in customer IO. And it's really on us to figure out how to keep meeting the growing demands and needs of customers. And that's why pace of innovation is such a critical thing for us.
Peep Laja (18:00):
You mentioned that you've been doing quite a bit of customer education. What goes into it?
Alina Vandenberghe (18:05):
A lot. Like you experienced, there's a lot that you have to do in many different areas, there's the podcast, there are case studies, there are customer interviews, there's a lot of conversation that needs to happen to expose people, what their competitors are doing and how they're doing it and why they shouldn't be left behind in this trends. But every industry is a little bit different. Everybody is approaching it a little bit different. So for instance, our customers who approach small businesses are going to operate very differently than those who are not because in the case of a small business, everything has to happen over the phone. There's no... You cannot send the calendar invite to a small business owner, they're not going to look at their calendar. So, it has to happen on the phone and it has to happens really fast. So, there are all sorts of subtleties and each persona is going to perceive that subtlety a little bit different by industry as well. So, we have to produce a lot of content in each one of these entry points.
Peep Laja (19:04):
How has the strategy changed between the time when you actually got started in 2016 and now five years later, how has it evolved? What kind of changes have happened?
Alina Vandenberghe (19:17):
At the beginning, because we were so focused on being cash positive, because we didn't have any funding, everything was made very intentional. We had this discipline of being very careful on how any cash is spent, how any hire is made, how we would do improvements in the product and so forth to make sure that we're economically viable no matter what. And now that this round of funding came upon us, obviously we have more freedom to being a little bit more bold in our actions and taking some additional risks that we would've not had before. Obviously you have to still be mindful of how money spent it. It gave us that courage and at the same time, it allows us to have the faster penetration, right? We can get more clients faster.
Peep Laja (20:11):
When you guys raised your series B, it was impressive to a lot of people like the multiplier on your ARR was high. And this was because of your very high net revenue retention. I think you said it's 159%. How'd you get there?
Alina Vandenberghe (20:28):
For us? It's harder to get in the account because you've all are used to status quo, not doing anything, but once they put Chili Piper on, they don't want to take it out because it hurts badly their revenue. As soon as one meeting doesn't happen because there's some sort of JavaScript error anywhere or somewhere they notice and they don't realize how life was before Chili Piper when that lead was in the books. So, it becomes a very sensitive topic and it becomes one that you don't want to mess up with anymore. So, you don't want to take it out and then if your pipeline grows and you hire more salespeople and snowballs with Chili Piper, right? So, we bring more revenues to the revenue teams, which in case they hire more revenue people in case, which means that they pay us more.
Peep Laja (21:21):
We now find ourselves entering a new era, the retention economy, companies that ignore this are going a out of business. If you combine high cost of customer re acquisition with low retention, that is death. Chasing quick revenue over lifetime value community and relationships is not sustainable. Strong retention and customer relationships is how you win in this new world. VCs and private equity give far higher valuations to companies with strong retention rates. To thrive in this new reality, we need to shift in our thinking. A sole focused on conversion rates is flawed. Instead, we need to consider the full customer experience, the brand and focus on down funnel metrics like, customer lifetime value, net revenue, retention, and purchasing frequency. So there's a beautiful flywheel there. What's a typical, or what's a good team size that brings you on? And what's too little?
Alina Vandenberghe (22:13):
It depends a lot on the volume of leads that people are getting on their websites. If you get one lead every two days, it doesn't make any sense to, you call them right away, you're on top of them, you make sure that they're served with a VIP carpet, but as soon as you have a certain amount of leads coming through your website, then we make our life much easier, but it's becomes painful around 10 salespeople. That's when it becomes really painful and you really want to fix the problem. So it depends on the circumstance.
Peep Laja (22:42):
So now that you raised money, you have more resources. So, what exactly is going to change? Okay, you can spend more money on ads and hire more sales people. What else is changing?
Alina Vandenberghe (22:53):
So, that's happening, then our marketing strategies are changing course as well. We're going to do many more things that we weren't able to do before and even on the product, because I'm the product side of the funding company, so there's Nicola, who's in charge of all the operations and sales and marketing. There's Alina me, who's responsible for the product and the engineering. On the product side, it pains me that I cannot have that individual conversation with a buyer and that the individual conversation with the people using our platform because that's where the insights would come.
Alina Vandenberghe (23:28):
Now I have to collect those insights at scale. So I have to be in thousands of conversations that are happening in a way that makes sense. So, I can keep that strategy the same at the same pace as I did when I was just myself, listening to each one of these calls. And it's not easy to come up with a good method to create those insights to come from all the Pipers that we have at Chili Piper and turn it into a bigger scale feedback gathering. But that's where I am right now on figuring out how to put those systems in place.
Peep Laja (24:04):
Do you have an example of how you collected insights? Your light bulb went on, decided to build something and it also worked.
Alina Vandenberghe (24:13):
So we have all sorts of alerts that we put on all the recordings that we have for when certain key words are being mentioned on calls so that I can go in and pinpoint, okay. They asked in that way, but why did they ask in that way? Did something change in the market? An example would be our events product, we had a product that would help people book meetings at events in person, and then COVID hit. So we had to put that product under mouth bowling. So, we had a trigger on people asking us about events. And as soon as we started hearing that on calls, we brought back the product from the shelf and now we're dusting it off and say, okay, let's make sure that this product works for this environment, but it was because of these triggers on calls that we understood that the market was thinking back about events.
Peep Laja (25:02):
Over the last five years. What were some of the bets that didn't pay off? Maybe some product bets or marketing strategy wise, anything that just didn't pan out?
Alina Vandenberghe (25:14):
Well, that's an example. I guess. The events product being launched a few months just before the pandemic hit, we spent a lot of time into making that work, maybe about a year. We had it live for a few months and then boom, everything shut down. And all these people that were planning events before they were trying to scramble and fear their new lives and new strategies. That was tough. Because we had a big pipeline and big revenue projections from it.
Peep Laja (25:45):
Making bets is hard. We want to predict what will happen. So typically companies try to gather as much data as possible to increase the odds of making the right call. We have more data than ever, so we're data rich, but often, insight poor. Information is collected, but the insight is connected. Even more, data and insights can easily become a burden, both emotionally and practically. Everybody's super busy and has more priorities than they should. Crunching through data is not how most want to nor can afford to spend their day.
Peep Laja (26:17):
Folks commissioning research are deluged by presentation, which is often undigested and even indigestible material. Data, both the lack of it and abundance of are causing anxiety. There's a deep fear that somewhere there's more data that I could have looked at and then guttered before making the decision. On top of it, this can result in delaying taking action, sitting in a decision and making no progress at all. But decision making is progress, so it's complicated. That said, separate decisions from outcomes, a good decision might still end in an undesirable outcome and a bad decision might work out great. This was a massive insight from the book thinking in bets by a former poker player Annie Duke, changed my thinking about decision making.
Annie Duke (27:04):
If we were more explicit and actually just making clear that every decision that we make is a bet, we would actually be better off and it would create a lot more open-mindedness. You can only make the one decision and you're deciding that whatever you have to invest and it doesn't have to be money. It can be your health, your happiness, your time, whatever it might be, usually it's all of the above. Whatever you're investing in, the decision that you actually go with, that that's going to hurdle you to the best set of possible futures as compared to any other decision that you might make. And that's really what you're doing. When you're betting is, you're making it explicit that a decision is a bet informed by your beliefs on a set of possible futures that you might be hurtling yourself too. So, once we kind of understand that frame, I think that it actually can help us overcome some of these problems that we have with decision making.
Peep Laja (27:55):
You guys started 25 bucks a month, it was very cheap. How has your pricing strategy rolled over time?
Alina Vandenberghe (28:02):
I think the having something that costs at an affordable price pays good dividends and not at the same time. The reason why we had to start so low is because people had this reference of currently, because people perceived us as being a currently alternative because scheduling that's part of our distribution, currently has a free license, they have a $15 license, I don't... But they would come from a low pricing point and we were almost double, so, we had to start low. But ROI wise, when you double your pipeline where your pipeline becomes from 4 million to 8 million, so, all of a sudden you add $4 million to your pipeline and you pay $30, it's something not quite right. So, you don't really believe that you can pay so little to get such a big conversion. So I think it also hurts us that we paid so low and there's so much at stake on that solution.
Alina Vandenberghe (28:52):
So for sure it comes with good and the bad, that kind of pricing strategy. We have moved a little bit from that because we now have a platform fee and there are different modules that you can turn on and off. So it's a bit different than how it started. But there's one thing that's kept with us and something that very few companies do, actually I don't know of maybe one mother that have transparent pricing, whatever pricing we have on our website, everybody pays. There's no exception.
Alina Vandenberghe (29:23):
There's the big guy who with a thousand licenses pays the same exact price as the guy who has only three licenses. And there's no exception to that, there's no negotiation, there's no behind the scenes pricing, there's no discount, there's nothing. That's what you pay. And our account executives are a little bit mad at us because at the end of the month, they have no leverage to close that deal. And a lot of buyers still wait for that end of the month discount. But at the same time, it makes their life easier because they know they can't do 25%, 30% depending on how the wind blows. Right? And you never quite know which discount of the day you're getting. So there's none of that
Peep Laja (30:05):
Taking five to 10 years into the future, what are the bets you are making to be competitive also 10 years from now?
Alina Vandenberghe (30:13):
We're going to bring Chili Piper on ready to be IPOed. I don't know if it's going to happen three years, five years, seven years, somewhere around there. But in the meantime, we want to make sure that we have an impact on our employees. And also we have put some money aside for a foundation that has clear mission of helping people break through diversity and ending violence at work or otherwise. We were in many countries and many cities, I think we're in 90 cities by now. And I think we're 30 countries. So, it's a quite diverse set of people. So, there's some benefit to knowing that you are working with a company that's so culturally diverse as ours and that they're aiming to resolve those cultural divergencies outside of work as well.
Peep Laja (31:04):
That's awesome. Thank you so much, Alina.
Alina Vandenberghe (31:06):
Thank you Peep.
Peep Laja (31:12):
So, what are the key factors that separate Chili Piper from their competition? One, they identified a wider business opportunity from a single client's problem.
Alina Vandenberghe (31:21):
The first client pay upfront to solving a very specific problem that they had. And we just asked around if others had the same problem, which was as soon as you have a prospect on the phone and you want to move them further in the process to make that transfer and handoff as smooth as possible. So that you say, yeah, you can talk tomorrow at 3:30 with Joe
Peep Laja (31:45):
Two, they have insanely high net revenue retention because the product adds tremendous value.
Alina Vandenberghe (31:51):
It's amazing that they have this inbound conversion at 30, 40%, but then they put Chili Piper on and then they have 70% or 80% and that's mind blowing.
Peep Laja (32:02):
Three. They use intelligent insights to inform how and when to launch new features.
Alina Vandenberghe (32:06):
We have all sorts of alerts that we put on all the recordings that we have for when certain keywords are being mentioned on calls. We had product that would help people book meetings at events in person, and then COVID hit. So we had to put the product under mouth bowling. So, we had a trigger on people asking us about events. And as soon as we started hearing that on calls, we brought back the product.
Peep Laja (32:35):
A final takeaway from Alina.
Alina Vandenberghe (32:37):
Once they put Chili Piper on, they don't want to take it out because it hurts badly their revenue.
Peep Laja (32:44):
That's how you win. I'm Peep Laja for more tips on how to win. Follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter. Thanks for listening.
